My day was made when I discovered this site.

Please, I need help in the area of CTP. My company is buying one. We already have quote from heidelberg for a prosetter 102 with 8 ups. I actually desire suprasetter from same company due to its capability of thermal plates as against prosetter's violet plates. Please advise me. Heidelberg has support for my location but have not installed suprasetter for any of its client.

Also, advise me on the type of prepress proofer and professional scanner best available.

Gbenga

Hi Gbenga,

You are astute to prefer the Heidelberg Prosetter over the Heidelberg Suprasetter . This is a correct decision as the prosetter and suprasetter could not be more different and it's way more than just a violet CTP vs the thermal CTP. Yet still, both the Heidelberg Prosetter and Heidelberg Suprasetter are internal Drum imagers so i do not recommend either device. What I would buy from Heidelberg is a Heidelberg TopSetter, or buy a DS Screen PlateRite 8600 or Fuji javelin 8600 or 8800II, all based on same enginnering design. This is best device for 8-up hands down. External Drum, Thermal Imaging, No single point of failure in heads, are Multi laser array.

The two oldest debates on computer to plate are (1) Visible Light Laser vs Thermal Laser for Computer to Plate imaging methods, and (2) Internal Drum CTP vs External Drum CTP. Unfortunately for the Prosetter and Suprasetter the machines represent both of the proven losers in these two old debates. Visible light imaging is always going to be technically and logically inferior to the long proven success of thermal laser imaging for metal plates. Likewise internal drum CTP is technically, logically, and mechanically proven inferior to the long proven successful designs of external drum CTP imaging systems.

The Suprasetter is probably a great machine if you decided to pursue these inferior types of CTP devices. It is Heidelberg and everyone respects that for sure. Heidelberg is actually one of the few manufacturers with enough confidence to even post on this forum. Most manufacturers tell their employees to stay clear of these forums unless they can pay off the host and then dominate any negative conversation, like say Agfa does on another forum. So, this forum is user to user, and manufacturers are welcome but have to keep it real and factual. Heidelberg has done that here and we have friendly debate.

So, Heidelberg would argue some of what I am saying and that's OK with me. But the fact is, the Heidelberg TopSetter is a machine based on the best and most successful CTP design to date. The Best. Heidelberg bought the engineering to DS Screen's PlateRite external drum CTP devices and with minimal mods they manufacture same device as "Heidelberg TopSetter. So, this device is basically the best design engineering in CTP and is proven as such over time. It has best reliable mechanics, imaging, and automation support. There's no question a better device than both the Suprasetter, AND Prosetter.

Violet is good, and has been a great improvement in visible light computer to plate. Violet has lowered costs and such but is still visible light CTP, not best in any way. So, really the problems with visible light CTP has been minimized to a degree with Violet, but you'll never sell me one. Nor an internal drum device. As a guy who has had both I will never forget the hard lessons learned in the 90's. Today I enjoy my external drum thermal CTP, a Creo Trendsetter. I have a new device coming as an upgrade and will keep the Trendsetter as a backup. My new device would never, ever be an internal drum visible light device whether violet or not. I am getting a Fuji Javelin 8600 or 8800II which is actually a DS Screen PlateRite 8600 or 8800II , based on the same design success as a Heidelberg Topsetter P 102 / PF 102 . I don't care what any of the sales people or factory reps say internal drum was great for roll soft substrate like film but not for sheetfed metal substrate like CTP. It's a bogus argument just like violet is better than thermal, simply not factual.

Fact is they (CTP Manufacturers) can make internal drum visible light cheaper and make more money on purchase. Also, forcing high maintenance or re-purchase as the devices fail with age. That's the name of the game, big profit and high cost of service maintenance agreements. You have to buy smart, buy external drum thermal TIME PROVEN device.
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JoePostscript -- support administrator

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hello gbenga,

i am a prepress engineer in nigeria, i have installed meny heidelberg ctp's here in nigeria, and have also currently install a couple of agfa and highwater ctp's here in nigeria.

i can tell you that the thermal technology cant survive in this hot temperature and high humidity region. the only thermal ctp here is going through alot of challenges.

i also like to let you know that with my experience you can get all the benefits you deserve and more from the violet technology.

if you wish we can hook up and i can show you a few of our installations.

regards
prepressengineer

Hi prepressengineer,

quote:

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i can tell you that the thermal technology cant survive in this hot temperature and high humidity region. the only thermal ctp here is going through alot of challenges.

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Wind Turbine Buyer's Guide

Hi There Joe. I am cross posting to this forum because I can't seem to find any contact info for you in other forums. I am interested in the Iris 43 wides that you had for sale. Please email me with contact information. My email address is don.splinter@roarkgroup.com

Hi joepostscript,

Happy New Year!!!

I need to correct you, the Suprasetter is an EXTERAL drum thermal device. Heidelberg designed it as their 5th generation CtP. We looked at our previous CtPs and took the best of the best in designing it and even added new. I agree the Topsetter is a fine CtP but we always strive to improve. So when we designed the Prosetter and the Suprasetter after the Prosetter, we incorperated many improvements.


Perhaps we can compare to the Topsetter to Prosetter & Suprasetter to show some of our improvements.

1- Suprasetter, like Prosetter, has Temperature Compensation. This compensates for the expansion or contraction of aluminum if you do a plate remake. did you know 9F difference will make a 8 up plate at 200 line screen off a whole roll of dots? Topsetter did not have this. Prior to manufacturing Topsetters, we manufactured Trendsetters and this was a feature on the Trendsetter.

2-By having Temperature compensation, we have a much wider environmental spec, Topsetter was 69.6 to 77, if you exceed this, you get a warning and then the machine will shut is self down. You can not image until the environment is back in spec. Prosetter is wider with 64.4°F to 82.4°F; 45% to 80% relative humidity and Suprasetter about the same or a little wider

3- A nice feature of the Topsetter is a degree of fail safe is built into the laser. It has two blocks of diodes, block A and block B. If you lose a diode, you can turn off that block. You can still image, but your are at 50% energy, so you productivity is greatly reduced. If you lost a diode in the both blocks, you are down. With Suprasetter, we have Intelligent Diode system. We have 64 emitters. if we lose a one, automatically, it will look to the left and to the right for the largest amount of emitters that are available. If it is 60, we shut off 60 to 64, you are imaging at 92% energy. If you lost another, it would do the same. You can lose so many there is not enough energy to image, but the laser will try to keep you up. You do get a message if you lose an emitter.

4- Topsetter laser had a very narrow depth of field and dust on the drum would give you a hot spot. In other cases, I will not mention the plate manufacture, had a plate that had rough edges. this would lift the side of the plate and it would have image from being closer to the laser. With the Suprasetter laser, we have a very wide depth of field and do not have the same problem.

5 - On the Topsetter, automation was in front and a conveyor went out the back of the recorder to feed the processor. This was straight and required a 44" processor on an 8 up. A "L" conveyor would allow a smaller 34" processor by feeding the plate by the 30" side instead of the 40". Unfortunately, neither Screen or Heidelberg make one so it had to be purchase by a third party. The conveyor also took up about 3 x 4 feet of floor space. With the Prosetter and the Suprasetter, we built the conveyor into the top of the automation, eliminating the extra 3 x 4" floor space. It is also an "L" conveyor, so you have a small 34" processor which is easier to maintain and uses less chemistry.

6 - Topsetter automation had the plate emulsion down, picked it up and flipped the plate over a foot as it was feeding it about 4 more feet into the CtP. This was a complex method of transporting the plate. With the Prosetter and the Suprasetter, the plate transport is more like a feeder on a press, they lay flat, It is picked up about 4 inches at the lead edge and a flat door rolls under it . The plate is then transported flat with a distance less then a foot into the CtP. Much simpler.

7-A Topsetter with a Multi Cassette Loader would change cassettes automatically if a different plate size was need. Unfortunately, you could not load plates into the cassettes while imaging. You had to stop imaging. Now if you are loading 3 or 4 cassettes up with 100 plates, it takes some time to do so. With the Prosetter and the Suprasetter, you can remove cassettes while it is imaging and load them up, no down time!

8-The Topsetter SCL cassette was removalble but would not go through a standard 36” door, you would have to bring the plates to it to reload. It was not realy designed to transport plates to the CtP. The Topsetter Multi Cassette Loader did not have removal cassettes at all, so you would have to bring the plates to it to reload. With the Prosetter and the Suprasetter, the cassettes are removed to a trolley and the trolley is tiltable; you could roll the cassette through a standard 36” door to the plate storage area to reload. Or you can have the cassette removed onto the trolly and reload it right by the CtP.

9-You could not upgrade a Topsetter to a higher speed back then. With the Prosetter and the Suprasetter, you can and Supra even has three speeds, 14, 19 and 30 plates per hour.

10 - If you had a Single Cassette Loader on a Topsetter and wanted to upgrade to a Multi Cassette Loader, it would take 5 or more days, so it was not too practical. We had to take the SCL in on Trade and replace it completely. With the Prosetter and the Suprasetter, the SCL is easily upgraded in the field in under 2 days.

There is even more but I think you can see we greatly improved with the Prosetter and Suprasetter over the Topsetter.

As for quality, plate dependent, we can go up to 300 line screen and also FM on the Prosetter. Suprasetter can go up to 400 line screen and also FM. Both image very high quality. In fact, the quality is the same unless you want to exceed 300 line screen, then the Suprasetter can. We print with both technologies every day in our 4 demo studios and prove the quality is the same whether with Prosetter or Suprasetter.

Now not all technology is the same. I will not mention the vendor, but they sell violet CtP and their own plates. When wee had our first installation with the Prosetter and their plates, the plate Product Manager called me and asked many question about our optics and laser system. They were very impressed with the quality we got. I guess their CtP optics were not quite as good. This has an effect on quality and can also have an effect on stablity.


A Violet laser will probably out last the life of the CtP. This is not the case with thermal. By offering both violet and thermal, we can meet most everyones needs based on their printing needs..

In fact, at Graph Expo, we just sold the 1500 Prosetter . On the other hand, we introduced new 6th generation entry level Suprasetter A52/A74 at Graph Expo too.

As Burger King says, Have it your way!


Regards,

Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA
Product Manager, CtP & Proofing.

Hi Mark,

I stand corrected. I swear I read somewhere about the Suprasetter being internal drum. I was so sure that today I scoured the web to try and find that source of info. But, nowhere could I find that, so I must have been reading too much that day.

I apologize too. Because you know, as bad as I feel about internal drum I would never want to miscategorize. How insulting.. I am glad to see the external drum is embraced in the new unit. External drum is the better way to go and I think that is in the right direction. Excellent, another external drum, thermal imager from a good outfit. Choice is good.

Thanks for another lengthy informative post. We all appreciate your time to collaborate and contribute. So, you now have two external drum thermal platesetters from Heidelberg. Sweeet.

Happy New Year!
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JoePostscript -- support administrator

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Wind Turbine Buyer's Guide


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Hi joepostscript,

I would not be surprised if you did see something on the web that was wrong. The beauty of the web is instantaneous info, the down side is anyone can post anything, even if wrong.

A lttle further clarification, we manufacture and sell only one external drum device, the Suprasetter. With all of the improvements we incorporated into it, the Suprasetter has replaced the Topsetter.

Regards,

Mark

dear prepressengineer
Just a short note on the technical limitation on the plate front due to hot and humid conditions. Violet plates do have protective overcoat that tends to form blisters if the temperature is hot and humidity is high. The movements of these plates needs to be done in refer containers and also the storage has to be 18 C max. Its not that prevalent with thermal.It can be moved in normal conditions and withstands heat of atleast 35C. However it is recommended that prior t usage you should keep the plate in ac to get adjusted to the platesetter room. But with heat and humidity the plate requires more energy to image. However it happens in extreme conditions only. mark and Joe correct me if I am wrong. and Joe as mark said Suprasetter is extrenal for sure. We have two installations here in this part of the country. and they are a beauty.
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Regards
swaran

Hi Joe,

Just joined and thought I would comment on the Violet vs Thermal CTP subject.

I have worked for Kodak and Agfa and now with a competitor but will say that both technologies work. Both Companies have a viable solution for just about everyone.

Kodak is now selling a violet plate but have traditionally been Thermal only and Agfa has been selling both Violet and Thermal for the last at least 8 years.

It is easy to get caught up in the moment but from a high speed Newspaper perspective, violet is the superior choice.

Thermal needs two heads to reach the speeds of a single laser violet, that reach the 260 plates per hour range, and drum technology is far less reliable than Agfa's straight through capstan at those speeds as well.

A Thermal head cost about 40-50K a violet laser is about 20-30K

Thermal devices from Kodak are External drums and Violet devices, from Agfa at least, are flatbed straight through devices. Agfa is now offereing Violet on their External drum devices. The Avalon.

I was an engineer for Agfa's Thermal X45 thermal product. So I know quite abit about the external drum technology. I also had worked with Agfa's aquisition of Autologic and I can say without a doubt, that the newer generation of Advantage Violet CTP's are hands down the better, more reliable device when it comes to High speed thorughput and servicability.

Thermal requires more service than violet, it generates far more heat and need much more controls. Hence the chiller.

Newspaper IFRA awards are all visible light machines and there are no thermal device winners. Yes even newspaper can use hybrib screening and achieve high quality.

That is personal experience, and both technologies require 50% Humidity and 70 deg temp. It is not becasue of the engines but due to the plates.

As far as quality goes, violet has proven winners, Thermal has proven winners, and we are talking about todays violet not the violet from 8 years ago.
Thermal is the obvious choice for those who do not like yellow light environments. Other than that Thermal does not have an advantage over violet in todays market.

It is however more expensive to manufacture a thermal head period.

Just thought I could contribute.

hello every one,

thank god i finally have someone who is not caught up in time, times are changing. in as much as we had load of benefits in thermal, we have to sit for a minute and think about the benefits of the violet technology too.

have a lovely week people.

I have worked with both thermal and Violet CtP in the tropics. I think one item people have ignored is that in the third world budgets are low but demands must still be met. We are required to create world class publications in situations and budgets that are not world class. My experience seems to favour violet over thermal. The high maintenance cost certainly negates thermal.

Advising someone not to install because we cannot afford the controls is counter productive. What we really need is some system that will work within our constraints and produce results that are comparable, if not better, than those produced worldwide. and violet, so far (touch wood), does seem to provide that. Installing humidity and temperature controls specifically for one department does increase the cost of ownership, and if we can work without it... all the better

Thermal in my country has so far proved not cost effective.
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Hello Guys..
How are you guys, i hope you all are fine and enjoying the life..
I am jazz and i am doing MBA with finance. I am here for getting some information..
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