We're looking into upgrading our current Apogee 3 PDF workflow. Any comments or ideas on the multitude of workflow solutions out there? I know that they are all very similar in nature. It's what's in the guts, I believe, that makes the difference.

I have read the related posts here. I just want to know if anybody has new info on the subject.

Apogee X?
Truflow?
Esko Scope?
Prinergy?
Xitron?
Prinect?
any others?

Currently using preps as imposition software, although automated imposition is not out of the question, we need to impose different sized jobs on one press sheet. Ease of use would be nice, Preps is complicated if you're not familiar with it.

Of course, we need post RIP proofing, PDF and Print. How may times have you been burned by that?

We are CTP to a Screen PlateRite 4300 supplying 5 different plate sizes to numerous web presses, 2 & 5 color Heidelberg Speedmasters. We are looking into getting a 6-color Komori L628 Lithrone to replace the 5 color Heidelberg. We also have Digital capabilities with 2 KPG DirectPress 3054s and a 6 Color HP Indigo press 3050.

Also in the mix for color proofing is a GMG colorProof system with an Epson Stylus 9800.

Thanks in advance!
-dannO

Hello Dan,

You have a good list of all the main systems that I was considering recently. I will rank them in order of preference. I spent months and did hands on RIP tests with most of them. As I read your requirements you are a big shop with allot of work to cram through one platesetter, like me, lots going on. Scope is the system if you ask me. The system can do so much you won't believe it. In a busy shop with so much going on, get the killer tools that Scope has. I put in a redundant Scope with 4 Dell dual Xeons in a new rack, a dual Xeon for my GMG to epson 10600's, a dual Xeon for my two new Spinjet 4000's, all with 4GB RAM, and the Esko Scope Backstage Edit. I can do things with a PDF file you would not believe, no other tools like it and the color stitch trapping engine is really good.

Esko Scope? - more powerful and fast than anything else, LOVE IT
Prinergy? - i hate kodak, maybe not as bad as agfa, good system, bad service
Xitron? - great easy system, cheap, proof without trap or screened w/trap
Apogee X? - will never do business with them again, but it is Adobe IRT
Prinect? - high cost of ownership, nickel & dime to death
Truflow? - limited imposition, bad trap engine, failed tests.
Rampage? - great company, good price, trap engine failed tests.
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JoePostscript -- support administrator

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Wind Turbine Buyer's Guide


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quote:

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Originally posted by joepostscript:
Hello Dan,

You have a good list of all the main systems that I was considering recently. I will rank them in order of preference. I spent months and did hands on RIP tests with most of them. As I read your requirements you are a big shop with allot of work to cram through one platesetter, like me, lots going on. Scope is the system if you ask me. The system can do so much you won't believe it. In a busy shop with so much going on, get the killer tools that Scope has. I put in a redundant Scope with 4 Dell dual Xeons in a new rack, a dual Xeon for my GMG to epson 10600's, a dual Xeon for my two new Spinjet 4000's, all with 4GB RAM, and the Esko Scope Backstage Edit. I can do things with a PDF file you would not believe, no other tools like it and the color stitch trapping engine is really good.

Esko Scope? - more powerful and fast than anything else, LOVE IT
Prinergy? - i hate kodak, maybe not as bad as agfa, good system, bad service
Xitron? - great easy system, cheap, proof without trap or screened w/trap
Apogee X? - will never do business with them again, but it is Adobe IRT
Prinect? - high cost of ownership, nickel & dime to death
Truflow? - limited imposition, bad trap engine, failed tests.
Rampage? - great company, good price, trap engine failed tests.

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Hello NewspaperMan,

Your opinions and views are welcome here and I'm glad you joined. I feel it's important though to point out that I used to be a customer of Agfa, Kodak, into MILLIONS of dollars spent. My points about either are beyond opinion. These are based on factual experiences and were hard learned experiences. I pass these on as factual accounts, far more than opinion. Maybe not same as everyone's experiences, but factual nonetheless.

I am not in a habit of firing vendors who take care of business and have good products. I just thought it important that you and anyone else knows these are not just BS rantings. Having run several of the largest prepress operations in the country, and consulting and programming for many others I have seen more than most and would never recommend something that I would not buy myself. I just recommend what I would buy for myself. I advise people to do what I would do. I have saved money and improved operations everywhere I have worked. It's why people respect what I have to say, it is not meant to be politically correct.

You are very welcome to post your experiences. If contrary to mine, that's cool, i realize that there are happy customers of companies I cannot endorse. If your experience is different, you are comfortable and right to endorse them. Welcome to the forum.
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JoePostscript -- support administrator

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Wind Turbine Buyer's Guide


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What MIS system are you using, this is where most of the automation going to come from in the future. You can bring preps imposition into trueflow through flatworker (Trueflows imposition program) theres a new program for bringing in jdf impositions from jdf compliant imposition programs like preps. Have you looked at metrics, I've had a demo and is pretty amazing for automated ganging of jobs see link www.lithotechnics.com.

I am looking into CTP for our company which has a smaller but similar web / sheet production set up.

Why would you not choose to upgrade Apogee?

Dont like Product / Company ?

Regards

Guy

Apogee is a great program and can do everything you want it to do.

It is component based and peices can be bought as you expand your shop.

Here is one aspect that alot of people tend to forget. If you currently have a vendors product, you know exactly what kind of support you will receive. You know exactly the level of service you will get because you probably have been using them over the last few years.

Whereas if you move to a competing product, you have no idea what level of support you will get. Granted it may be better but... thats the risk you will have to take in making that decision.

Just food for thought.

Joe,

What is your basis for stating this? Have you used my workflow? Have you bought it????

Prinect? - high cost of ownership, nickel & dime to death
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Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA

Hello,

Somehow I had missed this post and response from Mark. As I was re-reading this I am not happy with myself a little. I apologize for not seeing it and responding. I may actually go back and edit what I had said.

With regard to my comments about Prinect..

High cost of ownership and nickel and dime to death. That's not very fair actually. So, let me expand on that and atleast explain where that was coming from..

My (thought) response was basically geared towards comparing Xitron Xenith Xtreme which is Xitrons Adobe RIP with Adobe IRT. So, as compared with that, yes, almost ALL options are high cost of ownership. This includes the Esko-Graphics SCOPE which I am so proud of... Could say same of Kodak Prinergy, Apogee, TruFlow etc.

The comment, "nickel dime to death". Honestly that is how I feel about my SCOPE today, how I felt about My Kodak system, Scitex Systems and most systems that I have owned. So, that said ONLY next to Heidelberg was pretty stupid and not fair. There are many members with Heidelberg Prinect, happy with their system. The major strength is the integration to the press systems. If you ever saw how this can be so well tied together, it's sweet and that part is unmatched by any other vendor. If you have Heidelberg presses, many many people do. This is something very important and substantial.

The comment "nickel and dime to death". Really goes next to all the above except maybe Xitron as it's a one size fits all, cost/price performance leader in that group. But if you are a medium to large sized printer, like me, it just isn't full featured enough. With Esko-Graphics SCOPE, same as Kodak Prinergy, Heidelberg Prinect, it's so important that you really evaluate ALL the features you need and get that packaged going in. The sky is the limit with some of these systems but so are the costs attached. The vendors have to tie cost/profit to options as you do more and more with a system.

So, I just want to say I regret just loosely putting that next to Prinect. I shoot from the hip and sometimes blow through these posts without enough thought and review. Prinect is a very powerful and capable system with best press/prepress integration in our industry. This whole conversation is important and I invite anyone to put in their $.02 about comparing the different systems.
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JoePostscript -- support administrator

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Wind Turbine Buyer's Guide


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Joe,

Thanks, no harm done.

Now, I need to get even, was that 1 yard rushing the Cowboys had when they played the Redskins??

Regards,

Mark
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Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA

Now that's information. Lots to read, but the best is the jab about the cowboys. I can't go much beyond that because the Browns, even though 10 and 6, and way better than I ever expected for this year, could not beat the Bengals to clinch a spot in the playoffs

DannO,

Certainly you may let me know if you have any specific questions about the EskoArtwork workflow ( EskoSuite 7 ). I am sure we can address any concerns you have from areas you've been "burned" on in the past. Good luck. - peter
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Peter D Lewis
Sr. Applications Engineer - Canada
EskoArtwork
www.eskoartwork.com

Cleveland,

I have to confess, I am a Bears and a Cubs fan, I must be a masochist.

Regards,

Mark
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Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA

Indians, Cavs, Browns, and, damn it, a Buckeyes fan - The only thing Cleveland, and the state of Ohio like doing lately is either losing bad, or taking second place - yep, our favorite saying is "Wait till next year"

Cleveland,

I forgot the Fighting Irish...oh yea, I am trying to forget them this past year.

Regards,

Mark
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Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA

I love Agfa. I've made a good living for nearly 10 years, servicing thier disgruntled customers. They do make some good hardware though.